It’s very common in Eretz Yisroel when traveling on a bus that goes from one city to the next, that the driver announces on the loudspeaker “there are no more seats left”, and nonetheless an elderly person still gets onto the bus. Is one obligated to give up his seat to this elderly person as it says in this week’s parsha (19:32): מפני שיבה תקום – “in the presence of an old person you shall raise”, or can we say that the elderly person knew when getting on the bus that there were no seats left and that he would have to stand the entire journey, therefore, one doesn’t need to give up his seat for such a person?
What Age Is Considered “Elderly”, Sixty or Seventy?
The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 244:1) writes: It is a mitzvah to stand for one who is elderly, meaning, one who is seventy, even if he is an am ha’aretz [unlearned person], as long as he is not a rosha [wicked].
The Minchas Chinuch (Mitzvah 257:9) writes: Although this is the opinion of the Tur in the name of the Rosh, and the Beis Yosef cites a source for this from the Mishnah in Avos (5:21): בן שבעים לש יבה- “seventy is the age of seivah [elderliness]”, from the Targum we see differently. The Targum translates the pasuk, מפני שיבה תקום והדרת פני זקן, as, מן קדם דסבר באורייתא תקום ותהדר אפי סבא – “in front of one who is learned you shall stand, and you should also respect one who is old”. The Minchas Chinuch understands this to mean, that there is a mitzvah to stand Infront of a talmid chocham and one who is a zokein [elderly], and since the Mishnah says: בן ששים לזקנה – “sixty is the age of elderliness”, there is a mitzvah to stand for one who is sixty, even if he isn’t a talmid chocham.
The Minchas Chinuch mentions that this is the opinion of the Arizal as well, and concludes that one should be stringent like the Targum and the Arizal. The Birkay Yosef (Yoreh Deah 244:4) also mentions the Arizal who says the age is sixty.
What If One Is Unsure If the Person Is Elderly or Not?
If one is unsure how old the elderly person is, the Tosfos Chaim on the Chayei Adam (Klal 69:4) writes: One should be stringent as sofek de’O’raisa lechumra [when we are in doubt on a matter relating to a Torah law we rule stringently]. However, the Nachlas Eliyohu (R’ Eliyohu Duzhnitzer, Vol. 1, ois 59) is in doubt about this: On the one hand it’s a doubt on a de’O’raisa level, on the other hand there is a chezkas patur [presumptive status of being exempt], as when one is born he is young and there is no obligation to stand up for such a person, therefore, perhaps this status continues until we have clear proof showing otherwise. However, the Nachlas Eliyohu quickly refutes this argument, as staying young is a chazakah which is destined to change (עשוי להשתנות).
שיבה ודא י ולא שיבה ספק
In Shu”t Salmas Chaim (330) R’ Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld zt”l suggests based on a Gemara in Bava Metzia (7a) that if one is in doubt he doesn’t need to stand. The Gemara in Bava Metzia teaches: If one is busy counting his animals for maaser behamah [to take tithes from his animals], and one of the already counted animals jumps back into the herd, we now exempt the rest of the herd from maaser behamah as the halachah is: עשירי ודאי אמר ר חמנא ולא עשירי ספק – every tenth animal should be tithed, but it must be a definite tenth animal and not a case of doubt. R’ Yosef Chaim suggests, that perhaps the same thing is by the mitzvah of מפני שיבה תקום , and one only needs to stand for a definitely old person, and not when one is in doubt.
Although in our case one could ask the elderly person how old he is, often it’s embarrassing and not practical to ask, and in such a case perhaps we say, שיבה ודאי ולא שיבה ספק – a definite old person, and not a doubtful one.
R' Yosef Chaim Sonnefeld then says: There is a big difference between the two cases, as by maaser behamah since there is a doubt if this is the tenth animal or not, it can’t be considered the tenth animal, however, by old age, what difference does it make if one doesn’t know, if the person looks elderly one must stand.
In a haga’oh [note] on the above, they bring the Tzofnas Paneach (Rogatchover) who cites many proofs that when in doubt one doesn’t need to show respect. The Yerushalmi in Yevamos says, אביו ודאי ולא אביו ספק – a definite father, not a doubtful father (i.e. one only needs to respect a definite father). Similarly, we find in Shabbos (135a) that a sofek milah doesn’t override Shabbos, and if one does the bris on Shabbos we treat it as definite chillul Shabbos. Similarly, by yakir it’s clear from the Rashbam in Bava Basra (126b) that if one doesn’t recognize his son as a definite firstborn, we don’t even treat him as a sofek, and if he takes extra inheritance, we take it off him. We see that many times when we are in doubt, we are lenient.
Compromise of the Shevet HaLevi
The Shu”t Shevet HaLevi (5:130) makes a compromise, he says, if the doubt is if the elderly person is 60 or not, then even if we are stringent like the Arizal and the Minchas Chinuch, since most opinions hold the obligation to stand is only from seventy, when in doubt we can be lenient. If, however, the doubt is whether the old person is seventy or not, then we are stringent, as even if we say the chiddush of the Tzofnas Paneach that שיבה ודאי ולא שיבה ספק, perhaps there is chiyuv midrabonon to stand like we find in many cases that when there is a doubt on a de’O’raisa level, Chazal are stringent. Additionally, if the doubt is whether the elderly person is seventy or not, we have the opinion of the Arizal who is stringent already from sixty.
The Shevet HaLevi adds: If one is in doubt if the elderly person is younger than sixty or older than seventy, then we wouldn’t have this second reason.
If An Elderly Person Walks into Your Four Amos and Stops There and Starts Talking to Someone Else, Must You Remain Standing the Entire Time?
When it comes to the mitzvah of מפני שיבה תקום , is one obligated to stand the entire time the old person is in his presence even if he is talking to someone else, or is it enough to stand at the beginning when he enters within four amos?
If the obligation is even when he is just standing next to you, then if one is sitting on the bus, and an old person is standing nearby, then even if for whatever reason one isn’t obligated to give up his seat, since one must stand for the elderly person, he would be obligated to give the elderly person his seat, as not doing so would be middas Sodom, selfish, as either way he can’t use it, so why not let someone else use it.
The Har Tzvi (Orach Chaim 1:107, 2) discusses this question, and the sho’el [questioner in the Teshuvah] wants to bring a proof from the Gemara in Shavuos (30b) that one must stand even when the old person is simply standing in his presence.
The Gemara is discussing who must stand and who may sit in a lawsuit in front of Beis Din. Rav Huna comments that the machlokes who should stand and who should sit is only when the discussion of the case is happening (בשעת משא ומתן), however, when the final ruling is being issued, then everyone agrees the Dayonim sit, and the litigants stand, as it says: “Moshe sat to judge the people, and the people stood”. The Gemara then relates: The wife of Rav Huna came for a din Torah in front of Rav Nachman, and he was unsure what to do, he said: If I stand the other litigant won’t be able to present his argument (out of deference to the wife of Rav Huna), and I can’t sit as the wife of a chover [special learned person] is also considered a chover. He then told his attendant that as she comes in, he should arrange for a bird to fly in front of him, and then when he stands it will look like he is standing because of the bird and not because of her. We see from here says the sho’el, that as long as a talmid chocham (or wife of a talmid chocham) is standing in one’s presence one must stand, as if not, Rav Nachman could have stood up at the beginning and then sat down when issuing the final ruling.
However, the Har Tzvi refutes the proof, and he says, even if Rav Nachman would stand up only when she walked in, the other litigant would still find it difficult to present his argument after seeing the respect accorded to the wife of Rav Huna, therefore, he needed to ask for the bird to be sent in.
However, the Har Tzvi then quotes a Ran (cited in the Kesef Mishnah, Sanhedrin 21:3) from which it’s clear that one needs to stand as long as a Talmid Chocham is in his presence. It’s also clear in the Toras Chaim and the Tumim (17:10) that if one stands in front of a Talmid Chocham, one needs to stand as long as one is in his presence.
The Shu”t Oz Nidberu (10:30) is me’orah [raises a point] that even according to the Ran, Toras Chaim and Tumim, there is no proof to our case of the elderly person, as we can differentiate between the obligation of kibbud av v’eim, and kavod Talmud Chocham on one side, and the obligation of מפני שיבה ת קום on the other side. As when it comes to parents or Talmiday Chachomim there is an obligation of “kibbud” [honouring them] and “moreh” [fearing them], whereas by מפני שיבה תקום , there is just a mitzvah of “kavod”. Therefore, there is no proof from the Ran to our case, as the Ran in Shavuos is talking about the wife of a Talmid Chocham, who has the dinim of a Talmud Chocham, however, an elderly person, perhaps is different as there is no obligation of “moreh”, therefore, perhaps one doesn’t need to stand the entire time the elderly person is in his presence.
Is There a Patur [Exemption] Based on the Principle of אין מכבדין בדרכים
The Shu”t Mishneh Halachos (6:160, and 161) discusses our shailah, and he concludes that one doesn’t need to give up his place for the elderly person. One of his arguments is, that אין מכבדין בדרכים – “we don’t show respect whilst on the roads” like is clear in Berachos (46b).
However, seemingly there is a big distinction between the case in Berachos and our case. The Gemara in Berachos is referring to “kibbud” which comes due to being on the roads and due to entering and leaving places, i.e. who should go at the front, who should enter first etc. However, when it comes to being on a bus, although it’s true that one is on the road, however, the kibbud isn’t due to this, rather it is due to the mitzvah of מפני שיבה תקום , the obligation to show respect to elders, and this applies everywhere. Do we say that if one is sitting next to his father whilst traveling he is exempt from kibbud av?!! Therefore, it seems illogical to say an argument that since the bus is traveling on the roads, there is no chiyuv of standing up for the elderly.
Perhaps One is Exempt Due to Loss of Money
The Gemara in Kiddushin (33a) makes a hekesh between the mitzvah of “kimah” [standing] and “hiddur” [showing honor] and says: Just like when it comes to “hiddur” one isn’t required to miss work, so too when standing up one isn’t obligated to miss work. The hekesh works the other way as well and says: Just like by “kimah” one isn’t obligated to lose money, so too with “hiddur” one isn’t obligated to lose money, Based on this Gemara the Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 244:4 and 5) rules: “We don’t stand up for someone in the restroom, nor in the bathhouse, as it says תקום והדרת, stand when it shows honor.” The Shulchan Aruch continues: “Those who have professional jobs are not obligated to stand for Talmiday Chachomim when they are busy working” (as it causes them to lose money).
Perhaps we can argue that standing up for an elderly person is considered a loss of money. The Shu”t Mishneh Halachos (6:160) writes: It’s obvious that since one paid for the bus, we can no longer obligate one to give up his seat, as the payment for the bus includes not only the journey, but also a seat to sit on, and if one would honor the elderly person by giving up his seat, he would be losing out on money, and the Torah doesn’t require one to do this.
However, we can refute this argument on two accounts: 1) One doesn’t actually pay more money for the merit of sitting down, as generally speaking there is no difference in price for a standing passenger or a sitting passenger, therefore, there is no monetary loss involved (see Shu”t Shevet HaLevi 2:114 who mentions this logic.)
2) If we say one is obligated to stand for an elderly person when he is in his presence and remain standing due to the obligation of והדרת, then even if one isn’t obligated to lose money and give up his seat, practically when the old person is in his presence he can’t sit, therefore, indirectly the seat is empty, therefore, one might as well let the elderly person sit on it.
The Shu”t Teshuvos V’Hanhagos (1:533) writes: If the one sitting has a job, he can argue that if he waits for the next bus it will cost him time (which is money) and although he could travel on this bus and simply stand and won’t lose out on time, it seems that standing for a long time throughout the entire journey, is very uncomfortable, and is equivalent to losing money.
However, the Shu”t Shevet HaLevi (2:114) writes: This argument that we find, that the mitzvah of “kimah” is only when no monetary loss is involved, is only when the loss is something like missing out on work, as missing out on work is not directly related to the mitzvah - it’s just that one can’t work and fulfil the mitzvah of “kimah” at the same time. However, when the loss of money is the mitzvah itself, such as one paid more money to have a seat and he now must give up the seat, then it’s like all mitzvos and one must spend money in order to fulfil the mitzvah.
Must One Stand for An Elderly Person If He Was Moichel on His Honor?
The Shulchan Aruch rules (Yoreh Deah 244:14): “All those who are moichel, their honor is forgiven. Although there is still a mitzvah to respect them, and one should stand up slightly in front of them”. Perhaps we can say, that since the bus driver clearly announced, “there are no more seats”, it is like the elderly person was moichel on his honor.
The Shu”t Radvaz (vol. 8, siman 167) was asked why people aren’t careful to stand in front of elderly people, and why they don’t seem to keep a mitzvas aseh [positive commandment]? The Radvaz writes: I have already screamed about this many times and no one listens ... to remove this stumbling block, all elderly people that I see, I tell them to be moichel on their kavod. He concludes: Even if they are moichel, one still needs to show them some respect as is clear from Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 242:32, and 244:14).
However, in our case, it would seem that even if the elderly person gets on the bus after the driver clearly announces there are no more seats, it’s not a clear proof that he was moichel on his honor, the proof being, if one would offer him a seat, he is likely to take it.
The Shu”t Teshuvos V’Hanagos (3:278) adds: It’s obvious that even if a Talmid Chocham is moichel, and says you don’t need to stand, if he sits and the Talmid Chocham stands it’s a bizoyan haTorah [disgrace to the Torah], and it’s forbidden for one to sit and the Talmid Chocham to stand. Therefore, in our case one would have to stand, unless we differentiate between a Talmid Chocham and an elderly person.
Has The Elderly Person Perhaps Done Something Wrong by Getting on the Bus
Another thing we need to determine is, if perhaps the elderly person who got on to the bus after the driver announced there are no more seats left, violates a siman in Shulchan Aruch. The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 244:6) writes: “It is not fitting for a chocham to be burdensome to the tzibbur, and to specifically walk pass them at a time when they will all have to stand. Rather, he should find a different route.” It’s unclear if the elderly person violates this, as after all in Eretz Yisroel especially, normally when the driver announces “there are no more seats left” it’s treated as an invitation for more people to quickly squash on to the bus, as the driver is about to leave.
Conclusion
The Shu”t Shevet HaLevi (2:114) rules: Even if the main mitzvah of “kimah” is fulfilled by standing up for a brief moment of time and then sitting down, since we rule that we need a “kimah” which is a hiddur [honourable], it’s almost certain, that if one doesn’t give up his place to the elderly person he is not fulfilling the aspect of hiddur. As certainly there is a lack of a hiddur, if the young person sits, and the elderly person must stand the entire journey, as if he is a talmid in front of his rebbe.
The truth is, this is already clear in the Rishonim. The Moshav Zekeinim MiBaalei HaTosfos (Kedoshim 19:32) on the pasuk, מפני שיבה תקום , writes: The Rah MiGarmiza (ר''א מגרמייזא ) explains: When you see an elderly person, and it’s difficult for him to stand, and you are sitting, stand in front of him and offer him your seat, this is a middas chasidus [pious act]. והדרת פני זקן, if, however, one is not so old, and he has the strength to stand, respect him and say, ‘if you want you can sit in my seat’, this is an act of kavod. This is what the pasuk in Yeshayah which says “for elders show respect” means.
It’s clear that for one who is very old you should instruct him to sit in your seat, and this is middas chasidus, however, for one who is not so old, you need to ask him out of respect if he wants to sit in your place, but you don’t need to instruct him to take it.
The Chida (Nachal Kedumim, Kedoshim) brings a similar idea from Rabbeinu Ephraim, however, he makes no mention of it being a middas chasidus, he writes: מפני שיבה תקום , when you see an elderly person standing and he is uncomfortable and you are sitting, let him sit in your place. והדרת פני זקן, if he isn’t so old, honor him and tell him he can sit in your place if he wants.
In the name of R’ Elyashiv (in a Kuntros, on Dinei Kimah V’Hiddur Bifnei Chocham VeZokein, brought out by a Kollel in Rechovot in 5748, sif 63) it’s brought down: Even if according to strict halachah there is what to discuss about whether one is obligated to stand or not, one should give up his place, especially by an old man or lady, as this is the minhag and it’s a chillul Hashem not to.
R' Moshe Sternbuch in Teshuvas V’Hanhagos (1:533) writes: Due to chesed and derech eretz one should stand in front of elders and give them the seat, and it’s like a chillul hashem when one doesn’t. If one finds it painful and uncomfortable to do so, he should get accustomed to it, as he gets great reward. We can add, that lefum tzarah agra, the more pain there is, the more reward one gets.
We can also add the words of the Chida in Nachal Kedumim. The Chida quotes the Chareidim who says: “One who is accustomed to stand in front of elders merits yiras Shomayim, as it says, מפני שיבה תקום ויראת מאלוקיך, stand in front of elders and then ויראת מאלוקיך, you will attain yiras Shomayim.
(Based on a Teshuvah in Madanay Yom Tov, written by R’ Yom Tov Sanger shlita)
