In this week’s parsha (Behar) we learn about the prohibition of ribbis, the prohibition of charging interest. The main prohibition of ribbis is for the lender to ask the borrower to pay back more money than he borrowed, i.e. for a lender to lend $1000, and ask the borrower to pay back $1,200. However, we find many additional things that are forbidden due to ribbis on a rabbinic level. For example: If Reuven lends money to Shimon, and Shimon doesn’t normally greet Reuven with a friendly “good morning”, after Reuven lends him money he isn’t allowed to start doing so. This prohibition is known as ribbis devorim. In this week’s write-up we will try and determine what exactly is forbidden and included in the prohibition of ribbis devorim: Is Shimon the borrower allowed to say “thank you” to Reuven his lender? Does Shimon really have to avoid saying “good morning” to Reuven? Does it make a difference if Shimon used to offer a friendly greeting to Reuven even before the loan? What if after the loan they become neighbours, do they still have to avoid greeting each other? What about after the loan has been paid back, of this and more below.
The Source
The Gemara in Bava Metzia (75b) teaches: תניא רבי שמעון בן יוחי אומר מנין לנושה בחבירו מנה ואינו רגיל להקדים לו שלום שאסור להקדים לו שלום תלמוד לומר נשך כל דבר אשר ישך אפילו דיבור אסור – “R’ Shimon ben Yochai says: How do we know that if one lends his friend money, and he doesn’t normally greet him, it is forbidden to now greet him? Therefore, it says נשך כל דבר, from which we learn that even ribbis of words is forbidden”.
De’O’raisa or Derabonon
There is a machlokes rishonim if the prohibition of ribbis devorim is de’O’raisa or de’rabonon. The Sefer HaTerumos (Shaar 46, Vol. 3 sif 13), Ran (Kesubos 46a), Rabbeinu Yerucham (Meishorim, Nesiv 8, Vol. 1) and Shu”t Radvaz (Vol. 3, 1060) all learn it’s de’rabonon, and so rules the Chochmas Adam (Klal 131:11). However, from the Shu”t Rivosh (147) it’s clear, that it’s an issur de’O’raisa. It’s also clear from the Ri Migash cited in Chiddushei Rabbeinu Chananel ben Shmuel in Kiddushin (6b) that it's de’O’raisa. The Nesivos (72:15), Chedrai Deah (160:11) and Kovetz Shiurim (Kiddushin 77) also all learn it’s an issur de’O’raisa.
One of the conditions for ribbis to be de’O’raisa is that the amount of interest is fixed before the loan and by ribbis devorim this is not really possible, see the Nesivos who deals with this issue.
The Prohibition for the Borrower to Wish “Shalom” to the Lender
The Rambam (Hilchos Malveh Ve’loveh 5:12) writes: מי שלוה מחברו ולא היה רגיל מקדם להקדים לו שלום אסור להקדים לו שלום. ואין צריך לומר שיקלסו בדברים או ישכים לפתחו שנאמר "נשך כל דבר" אפלו דברים אסורים - “If one borrows money from his friend and he never used to greet him with “shalom”, it’s forbidden to now start doing so. It goes without saying that one can’t start to praise him, or start going to his house to visit in the morning as it says, “any form of ribbis”, that even ribbis of words is forbidden.” The Shulchan Aruch (Yoreh Deah 160:11) rules accordingly and says: If the borrower doesn’t normally greet the lender by saying “shalom”, it is forbidden for him to start doing so now.
What About Extending a Hand to the Lender Without a Greeting
Some want to prove from the prohibition of shochad [bribery] that extending a hand is forbidden, as both by shochad and ribbis we find that there is a prohibition related to words, by shochad we find shochad devorim, and by ribbis we have ribbis devorim. The Gemara in Kesubos (105b) says: “What is shochad devorim? Like that of Shmuel who was once crossing over a bridge, a man came and gave him his hand (and later Shmuel realised that he had to judge a case involving this person).” Consequently, if by shochad devorim extending a hand is a problem, the same thing should be by ribbis devorim.
However, the Darkei Teshuvah (160:76) quotes from the sefer Marbeh Torah that from the lashon [language] of Chazal it’s clear that the prohibition of ribbis devorim is saying “shalom” with the mouth specifically, and extending a hand, out of respect is not a problem. We can’t compare ribbis to shochad, especially as Rashi explains the Gemara that the man gave Shmuel a hand to lean on when crossing the bridge, and Shmuel gained from it, much more than when one simply gives a handshake.
What Is Considered Regular
We mentioned above, that if the borrower doesn’t normally greet the lender with “shalom”, he can’t start doing so now. The question is, what is considered regular?
On the one hand, in many places in Shas and poskim we find that regular is two or three times (see Darkei Teshuvah 160 s.k. 73 in the name of the Marbeh Torah s.k. 27 ois 5). On the other hand, the Biur HaGra (160:14) quotes the Tosefta in Bava Metzia (end of Perek 6) which says: R’ Akiva said the prohibition of ribbis is very difficult, as even extending a greeting is considered ribbis, how is this so? If one never extended a greeting until the loan and then he started doing so, he violates the prohibition of ribbis”, from here it seems, if one extended a greeting even once, he may continue to greet the lender.
Since there is a machlokes [dispute], even though ribbis devorim is rabbinic, one should follow the Pri Megodim in Hilchos Eruvin (368, Eishel Avraham 1) who brings many opinions as to what is considered regular, and he concludes three times is certainly considered regular. Although there is room to differentiate between Hilchos Eruvin and Hilchos Ribbis, due to the severity of the prohibition of ribbis, one should be stringent and not extend a greeting to the lender, unless he already does this regularly and has already done it at least three times (see Bris Yehudah, Ikrei Dinim, Perek 10, he’orah 109).
What If the Lender and Borrower Become Neighbours After the Loan
The heter of rogil [regularity] is because in such a case it’s not recognisable that one is wishing the lender “shalom” because of the loan. According to this, the Bris Yehudah (Perek 11, he’orah 62) writes: If a new circumstance arises after the loan, about which we could say that this is why he is now greeting him, then it is like rogil. Consequently, if the lender and borrower later become neighbours or relatives, the borrower may now greet the lender.
Extending a Greeting to One Who Runs a Gemach
If the lender runs a public loan gemach and he is not the one who owns the money, they bring from R’ Elyashiv (Kuntros Kitzur Dinei Ribbis, brought out by Kollel Avreichim Rechovot, sif 28) that the borrower may start greeting the one in charge of the gemach as he is not the one who actually owns the money.
However, if the treasurer (one who runs the gemach) also has some of his personal money in the gemach then one should be careful not to wish him “shalom” if he wasn’t accustomed to doing so beforehand.
However, even in such a case, if there is a tanai [stipulation] in place which says that the gemach is responsible for the money, and if any money is lost, the gemach will compensate from future deposits, then the treasurer’s own money is considered a loan to the gemach and the gemach is now responsible for this money, and in such a case there would be no problem of ribbis devorim even to the treasurer of the gemach (Nesivos Shalom pg. 108, ois 12).
Wishing “Shalom” to a Lender Who Normally Wishes “Shalom” to Others
The Toras Ribbis (Perek 4, he’orah 12) writes: If the lender wishes “shalom” to the borrower first, then certainly he may answer, as such a greeting is not due to the loan, rather it is because it is common decency to respond to someone who wishes you “shalom”. The Gemara in Berachos (6b) teaches: If a friend wishes you “shalom” and you don’t answer back, you are considered a thief.
He adds (Birur Halachah, ois 2): According to the Maharsha who says that the minhag is that the one answering back doubles up the greeting, if the lender wished “shalom” first, it’s permissible for the borrower to wish back a double “shalom”, and to greet the lender with “shalom, shalom”. Since this is the minhag, it is nothing to do with the loan.
He further adds: If the lender is the type of person who normally greets people, it’s permissible for the borrower to greet him first, as the Gemara in Berachos says: “If one knows that his friend normally wishes him “shalom”, he should try and beat him to it and say “shalom” first, like it says, בקש שלום ורדפהו – “pursue peace, and run after it”.
If the Borrower Wishes “Shalom” to Everyone He Meets, Can He Say “Shalom” to the Lender As Well?
If the borrower recognized the lender before the loan and he never used to greet him, it is forbidden to start doing so after the loan, as it is clear that the reason he started doing so is due to the loan. If, however, the borrower never recognized the lender beforehand, and now he lends him money, if the borrower is the type of person to greet everyone he knows and recognize, they say in the name of R’ Elyashiv that for such a person it is permissible for him to start greeting the lender. (Ribbis L’Ohr Halachah, Perek 8, he’orah 3, see also Bris Yehudah, Ikrei Dinim, Perek 10, he’orah 109)
Greeting the Lender After the Loan Has Been Repaid
The Birkay Yosef writes (160:11) in the name of the Maharikash: The prohibition to wish “shalom” is when the money is still in the hands of the borrower, however, once he repays the loan, certainly he may say “shalom” to the lender. He adds: It doesn’t make sense to say, that because the lender once lent the borrower money, for the rest of his life the borrower can’t say “shalom” to the lender.
The above is meduyak [implicit] in the Rambam (Hilchos Malveh Ve’loveh 5:12) which says: One who borrowed money from his friend, and he wasn’t accustomed to greeting the lender, it is forbidden for him to start doing so ... it’s also forbidden to teach the lender Mikra [Scripture] or Talmud, as long as the money is still in his hand, unless he was accustomed to previously doing so.” We see that the prohibition is only as long as the money is still in the hands of the borrower.
The Yad Avraham (160:6) writes: This is meduyak in the Gemara (Bava Metzia 75b), the Gemara says: “R’ Shimon ben Yochai says: From where do we know that if ones friend owes him a moneh [certain amount of money] and he doesn’t normally wish him “shalom”, that it is forbidden to start doing so.” We see that the prohibition is only when the borrower still owes the lender money.
There is an issur derabonon of ribbis even after the loan has been paid back, this is known as ribbis me’ucheres [interest paid after the loan has been returned]. From the aforementioned Birkay Yosef it seems that the issur of ribbis me’ucheres doesn’t apply to ribbis devorim.
However, the Darkei Teshuvah (160, s.k. 87) quotes the Marbeh Torah, who says that after repaying the loan, the borrower should wait the amount of time it takes to say four words and then he can say “thank you”.
Some ask, that as long as the borrower and lender are still busy with the loan it is still considered sha’as piron [time of repayment], and seemingly the lender should wait until they are no longer busy with the loan, which is normally slightly longer than the amount of time it takes to say four words (Nesivos Shalom, 160:11, ois 4).
Based on the above, it is certainly ok for the borrower to say “shalom” to the lender after he repays the loan. On the contrary, saying “shalom” should be more lenient than saying “thank you”, as “thank you” is certainly connected to the loan, whereas “shalom” isn’t. Additionally, if ribbis devorim is an issur derabonon, there is even more room to be lenient when it comes to ribbis me’ucheres.
Flattery and Ribbis Mukdemes [Advanced Interest] by Ribbis Devorim
There was a story with a rov of a certain shul who gave a shiur, and after a few days a Yid approached him and praised him “for the amazing, unbelievable, inspiring shiur etc. etc.” and after they finished discussing the shiur, the Yid approached the rov and asked if he has any money in his gemach available for lending. The rov said he has X amount of money available, and this Yid pressed and asked if he could perhaps borrow a little more. It was now clear that the intention of the borrower with all his praises about the shiur was so that he could get a more generous loan.
The question is, is this a problem of ribbis devorim? The room for doubt is, since ribbis devorim is only when the lender has the money in his hand, perhaps giving praise and flattering the potential lender (in this case the rov) before asking for money is ok?
The Orchos Tzadikim (Sha’ar 24 – Sha’ar HaChanifus) and the Reishis Chochmah (Sha’ar HaKedusha, Sha’ar 12) both bring a Medrash which says: “For three things we allow flattery: 1) A husband may flatter his wife for the sake of shalom bayis, 2) A borrower can flatter his lender, so that he doesn’t pressure him, 3) One may flatter his rebbe, so that he teaches him more Torah.” The Medrash continues: “It’s a big mitzvah to flatter talmidim and friends so that they learn, and that they listen to rebuke you give them in regard to performing mitzvos. The same is with all people, if it will get them to keep mitzvos.
That which the Medrash says, “a borrower can flatter his lender” is very difficult, as what about the prohibition of ribbis devorim?
The truth is, the Shu”t Mishneh Halachos (Vol. 11, siman 130) points out that the sefer Ohr Tzadikim (Hilchos Derech Eretz 25:21) also brings this Medrash and misses out the second case of flattering the lender (see also the sefer Chovas HaShemirah of the Chofetz Chaim at the end of the sefer B’Inyan Chanufah, ois 9, who also misses out the second case of flattering the lender). Seemingly, this is because doing so is an issue of ribbis devorim, and it is no better than extending a greeting to the lender, which is forbidden unless one was accustomed to doing so beforehand.
The Shulchan Aruch HaRav (Hilchos Ribbis, sif 9) when discussing the prohibition of ribbis devorim writes: “If one needs to request from someone a loan, or he needs an extension on a pre-existing loan he should request with divrei tachnunim [words of pleading], but he shouldn’t offer praise and compliments or flatter the lender in other areas”. It’s clear from the Shulchan Aruch HaRav that ribbis devorim is forbidden even before the loan (Ribbis Mukdemes), and it’s difficult to say he is only stringent when the borrower offers praise to the lender regarding the loan, as he writes, “but he shouldn’t offer praise and compliments or flatter the lender in other areas” (שלא ידבר דברי שבח וקילוס או חנופות דברים אחרים ).
However, perhaps we can explain that the Shulchan Aruch HaRav is leshitosoi [following his own line of reasoning from another area] as the Shach (Yoreh Deah 160:10) writes that if one gives a gift to the lender a large amount of time before the loan or after the loan, there is no concern of ribbis even if one gives a large gift, as long as one gives the gift without saying anything, if, however, one mentions that he is giving the gift due to the loan, then even a small gift is a problem. On the other hand, the Shulchan Aruch Harav (Hilchos Ribbis, sif 7) and the Chochmas Adam (Klal 131:8) maintain that even if one doesn’t say anything, if the lender thinks in his mind that he is doing this because of the loan, it is also prohibited. According to this, we can understand why the Shulchan Aruch HaRav is stringent and says that it is forbidden for the borrower to offer praise or flattery to the lender before the loan, as the reason he is doing it is because of the loan.
However, I saw another way to reconcile the Shulchan Aruch HaRav with the Kadmonim: Certainly, if the lender creates pressure more than is fitting, it is permissible for the borrower to flatter him to get him off his back. Additionally, if the lender demands repayment before it is due, perhaps it is even permissible in such a case for the borrower to give the lender money to get him off his back, as this is not payment for the loan. Certainly, flattery in such a case so that the lender stops pressuring is allowed, and the Shulchan Aruch HaRav only forbade doing so when one is trying to get a loan or extended time for his pre-existing loan.
Even according to the Shulchan Aruch HaRav, the prohibition is only to flatter the lender before the loan as it is recognisable that it is being done for the loan, however, to extend a greeting and wish “shalom” there is no issue as it is not clear that it is being done due to the loan (Bris Yehudah, Perek 11, he’orah 65).
It is important to note, that since there is a prohibition to flatter the lender due to ribbis devorim, if the borrower is honoured with speaking at a simcha such as a bar mitzvah or sheva berachos when the lender is the ba’al simcha or the host, the lender must be careful not to praise him and flatter him more than he would normally.
Saying “Thank You”, “Yasher Koach” or “Tizku Le’mitzvos” to the Lender
The Meiri (Bava Metzia 75a) writes: Some meforshim write, one shouldn’t say to the lender I am very grateful for the loan you gave me, and it goes without saying that one shouldn’t teach Mishnah, Talmud etc., to the lender in return for the loan. Nonetheless, some allow to show appreciation and to give the lender a berachah, as he will answer something back as well, and his words cancel out your words. (I.e. If you say, “thank you”, he will say “it’s a pleasure”). Halachah lemaaseh, the Beis Yosef (160:11) writes: To show appreciation is forbidden, and this is derived from the prohibition of saying “shalom”. If extending a greeting is forbidden, certainly showing appreciation is forbidden.
The Darkei Teshuvah (160:87) quotes the Marbeh Torah (s.k. 29) who writes: It is forbidden to say “thank you” to the lender until after the loan has been repaid (even then, one shouldn’t do it straight away, like we mentioned above). R’ Moshe (Igros Moshe, Yoreh Deah 1:80) says clearly, that saying “thank you” is ribbis devorim.
In Shu”t Minchas Shlomah (1:27) it is brought down from Achronim that it is forbidden to say “thank you” due to ribbis devorim, therefore, many say “tizku le’mitzvos” instead. However, R’ Shlomah Zalman writes that this is not a good practice as this is a berachah, and it is clear from Tosfos in Kiddushin (8b) that it is forbidden to give the lender a berachah. On the contrary, it appears that to say “thank you” just to not be ungrateful is halachically easier than giving a berachah. Saying “shalom” is a problem, as this is considered a berachah.
Some add, that the problem of saying “thank you” to the lender, is only when one thanks him more than regular, such as to praise him, offer compliments, and then bless him (see Chelkas Binyomin 160:108). They also bring from R’ Elyashiv that it’s permissible to say, “thank you”, or “tizku lemitzvos” as today this is not the same as wishing “shalom” (quoted in Nesivos Shalom pg. 107).
However, in Shu”t Minchas Shlomah (Vol 2. 68:2) R’ Shlomah Zalman retracts from this pesak, after he saw that the Shulchan Aruch Harav (Hilchos Ribbis, sif 9) writes: “... certainly to praise him and to thank him and show appreciation is forbidden...”. R’ Shlomah Zalman writes: Initially I thought that giving praise and berachah is forbidden as the lender benefits from this, however, to receive a free loan, and to act towards the lender as if he never did anything is a lack of derech eretz and incorrect, therefore, I thought that it is certainly permissible to thank the lender for keeping what the Torah requires (lending a free loan), however, once I saw the Shulchan Aruch HaRav writes clearly that doing so is forbidden, I retracted.
They also bring from the Chazon Ish (Orchos Rabbeinu, Vol. 3, pg. 94) that it’s forbidden to say “yasher koach” due to the prohibition of ribbis devorim.
It is clear that most poskim maintain saying “thank you”, or “yasher koach” is forbidden. We also saw that saying “tizku lemitzvos” is problematic as one is blessing the lender. However, the Bris Yehudah (Perek 11, he’orah 64) writes: The minhag is to say “tizku le’mitzvos” and he explains, there is a difference between this and a regular berachah, as one isn’t giving anything from himself, rather he is saying just like you merited this mitzvah of chessed, so too you shall merit other mitzvos as mitzvah goreres mitzvah, one mitzvah leads to the next. However, giving a regular berachah, even a birchas hedyot [blessing giving by a simple person] is considered something from oneself.
Is It Ok to Say “Thank You for Your Efforts”
Some are accustomed to say, “Thank you for all the efforts you put in to help me” and they explain that they are not saying “thank you” for the loan, rather they are simply thanking the lender for his efforts (Toras Ribbis, Perek 4, he’orah 6).
Similarly, the Torah Temimah (Ki Seitzei, Perek 23, he’orah 105) asks on the minhag of people to say “thank you” for a loan, as to why it is not a problem of ribbis devorim and he explains: Since it is derech eretz to thank one for his efforts, the “thank you” is not going on the loan, rather it is going on the efforts involved in the loan.
However, in Nachlas Eliyohu (pg. 322) HaRav Eliyohu Dushnitzer proves from Tosfos in Kiddushin (8b) that even if the lender receives a berachah from the borrower not for the actual loan but because of his efforts involved in getting the money and giving it to him it is still forbidden. In the case in Kiddushin, the berachah the borrower gives the lender is for returning the mashkon [the item given for security of the loan], and still Tosfos writes that this a problem of ribbis devorim as the berachah is coming due to something related to the loan.
May the Borrower Thank the Lender Through an Agent
The Darkei Teshuvah (160, s.k. 87) writes in the name of the Marbeh Torah that if the borrower sends a shliach [agent] (not an agent who is returning the money) to the lender to thank him for the loan it is much less of an issue as אין שליח לדבר עבירה – there is no shlichus when it comes to aveiros (as is clear in the Rema, sif 16 in the name of Rashi). However, this may depend on whether ribbis devorim is an issur de’O’raisa or issur derabonon, as there are those who hold that by derabonon’s we say there is shlichus for aveiros (see Ketzos HaChoshen 195:9, who mentions a machlokes about this). However, even without this there is room to say it’s not an aveirah at all as מילי לא מימסרן לשליח – words can’t be given over to an agent.
May the Borrower Say to the Lender That He Wants to Thank Him, However, It Is Forbidden Due to the Prohibition of Ribbis Devorim?
Since there are so many opinions about the above, seemingly there is an eitzah [solution] for the borrower to say to the lender that he really wants to thank him as he doesn’t want to be ungrateful, however, what can I do the Torah doesn’t allow. The Nesivos Shalom (160:11, s.k 8) cites proof from Lavan. Hashem told Lavan, “Be careful, don’t speak good or bad about Yaakov”. Lavan then went and told Yaakov, “I want to do bad, however, the G-d of your forefathers appeared to me yesterday and said, ‘be careful don’t speak good or bad’”, we see that what Lavan said is not considered bad (otherwise, he ignored Hashem). Therefore, in our case of ribbis devorim as well, we can say that it is not considered saying thank you. However, some say that doing this is haromah [a trick], and is still a problem.
Iy’H after Shavuos we will continue this topic and discuss a number of other possible issues that arise when trying to thank the lender for lending money. I.e. if one borrows money to print a sefer, can he say “thank you” in the sefer to the lender. If the borrower is a Talmud Chocham, is he allowed to daven for the lender? Can the borrower honour the lender with an Aliyah? And more ribbis related issues.
